Ted Shigyo interview

              >> Carlene Tinker: Good morning, Dr. Shigyo.
>> Ted Shigyo: Good morning, Carlene.
>> Carlene Tinker: How are you this morning?
>> Ted Shigyo: I'm doing good, thank you.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, that's great. Welcome to the Special Collections research center. My name is Carlene Tonigoshi-Tinker [assumed spelling], and I'm the volunteer coordinator and the first interviewer for the newly-launched program, the new Issei to Gosei Interview Project. Now, that is a mouthful.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, that's great [laughter].
>> Carlene Tinker: It's actually a new oral history project continuing with all the ones that we already have done, and these are available online for researchers, and also for families to see what stories are there that have belonged to their ancestors.
>> Ted Shigyo: Mm-hmm, That's great. Great.
>> Carlene Tinker: But this is a new extension of that, and since we're starting with Isseis, there may be still some Isseis around, maybe not.
>> Ted Shigyo: Probably not, no.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's unlikely, but they may -- we may have some people who have recently immigrated. So, technically, they're Issei.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes. Issei, yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. The name of the project, Issei to Gosei Interview Project, actually is a combined version of the five generations from which the people we're interviewing are coming from.
>> Ted Shigyo: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, I think you're a third-generation.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, I'm Sansei.
>> Carlene Tinker: You're Sansei.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: But for the purpose of the readers, and the people who are viewing this interview, let me explain what the five generations are that are targeted in this project.
>> Ted Shigyo: Okay.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay. First, we have the Isseis. They're the ones who came from Japan. They had children, and their children were called Niseis, or are called Niseis -- first generation born here, but children of Isseis.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: The third generation, of which you and I are -- we're the second generation born in the United States, children of Niseis. The fourth generation are the Yonseis, which your children are.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: And my children, and their -- our children, and they're the third generation to be born in the United States. And the fifth generation, Goseis, children of the Yonseis. And we actually may have some --
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, I think so. Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- that's right, the fourth generation born in the United States, and third generation here in the United States. Okay, the first Isseis actually immigrated here probably 18 -- late 1800s, early 1900s.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, yes, that's correct, Uh-huh.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. And as we kind of agreed by your facial expression, probably there are not very many of them alive.
>> Ted Shigyo: No, I don't think so. No.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Yeah. However, as I said, we might still be having Isseis. In fact, I know one of our faculty members here at Fresno State -- her mother is an Issei.
>> Ted Shigyo: Oh.
>> Carlene Tinker: I mean, she came from Japan, and even though she's not part of that first group, we technically consider her an Issei, right?
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes. Yes, that's correct.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay. So we may be still interviewing Isseis. All right.
>> Ted Shigyo: Okay [laughter]. All right.
>> Carlene Tinker: As you know, the focus of this particular project is to interview folks who have been here in the valley for a long time. Maybe they've gone away. Maybe they've come back, but we want to know what your life has been here in the United States.
>> Ted Shigyo: Okay. >> Carlene Tinker: In the San Joaquin Valley, particularly. And then, also, a very important part of this is to find out what your experiences have been as a Japanese-American, third-generation, Sansei. Okay? Today is Thursday, December 13th, and we're conducting the interview in the Henry Madden Library, and the time is 10:00 --
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, correct.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- or 9:55, to be exact. Okay, very important to scholars from all over -- in fact, a lot of these things online are open to people wherever they are in the world, and I have some personal experiences with students at the Denver University that have used our materials extensively.
>> Ted Shigyo: Oh, really? Wow.
>> Carlene Tinker: So it is very important that we institute this particular project, and, also for your families. I know some of you may not have shared a lot of your experiences with your children, but here will be a permanent record --
>> Ted Shigyo: Okay.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- a permanent record. Okay.
>> Ted Shigyo: Oh. That's great.
>> Carlene Tinker: So your story -- let's start with identification. Can you first give me your full name?
>> Ted Shigyo: Okay, my full name is Tetsuo "Ted" Shigyo.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, and your birth date and your age?
>> Ted Shigyo: I was born in July 13th, 1944 in Tule Lake Internment Camp, but my birth certificate, interestingly, is Nuo [assumed spelling] or Newell, California, because Tule Lake wasn't a city, and there wasn't a record department at -- in Tule Lake. So the nearest town was Newell, California. So my birthplace, even though it was in Tule Lake, is listed as Newell, California.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, and you were -- you were born in '44?
>> Ted Shigyo: '44, in -- yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, how close is Newell to --
>> Ted Shigyo: Probably about 20 miles.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- oh, is it that close?
>> Ted Shigyo: Yeah, I -- yeah -- yes, I've been there.
>> Carlene Tinker: Is there anything there now?
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, there's a town there. Probably, I don't know -- I was there many years ago, probably 20 or 25 years ago, and there must've -- population of maybe 20,000.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, is that right?
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. And then, how about remnants of the camp itself? Are there any buildings, or have they built anything since then to represent the time that you were there?
>> Ted Shigyo: Not anymore. I was there in 1969, the first time, and there was remnants of watch towers. There were probably three or four of them on the ground. There were barracks still there. There must've been at least a dozen barracks remaining. That was in '69, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Mm-hm. Hrm. Oh is that ri--Wow.
>> Ted Shigyo: I went back in -- I believe in 1995, and the watchtowers were gone. The barracks were mostly gone, but the locals have used these barracks for store--storehom--houses, and there are a lot more manufacturing things going on in that area.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned. Now, as I recall, there are pilgrimages, aren't there, from former internees that go -- is that true, or --
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, there was. I haven't heard of one for quite a few years, but I think the last one was about 15 years ago.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- oh, is that right?
>> Ted Shigyo: Yeah, they used to have reunions also. I've been to one in -- that was in Sacramento quite a few years ago, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Uh-huh. I see, yeah, yeah. Okay, and then your current address -- where are you living now?
>> Ted Shigyo: I live here in Fresno, California. I went away to college, and came back, and I live here now, in Fresno.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, so basically, since college and since you were a --
>> Ted Shigyo: Medical school.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- in medical school, you've been here consistently.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, correct, correct, yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay. And then, what has been your main occupation or occupations?
>> Ted Shigyo: I graduated from University of California San Francisco with a medical degree, and my occupation is medicine. I worked in the emergency room for about 30 years.
>> Carlene Tinker: About 30 years, okay. Okay, let's begin your story with information about your family, starting with your grandparents.
>> Ted Shigyo: Okay.
>> Carlene Tinker: You said you're third-generation, so your grandparents were the ones who came to the United States.
>> Ted Shigyo: Correct, correct.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay. How about your grandfathers on both sides? Where did they come from?
>> Ted Shigyo: My paternal grandfather, Shigyo Gichan [assumed spelling], came from Kyushu in a prefecture called Fukuoka, and he was a farmer. He came from a farming family, very poor. He was looking for a better life, and he came to California in the late 1800s. I'm not sure exactly what year. He was here by himself. He wanted to make money, then go back to Japan, buy a farm, and live a comfortable life.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. What about your maternal grandfather?
>> Ted Shigyo: My maternal grandfather actually came from a very well-to-do merchant family in southern Japan also. They -- it's a prefecture called Kumamoto, and he actually had a junior college education. And his degree was in English,{laughter} of all things.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned.
>> Ted Shigyo: And in the early 1900s, Japan went to war with Russia, and he was going to be drafted. And he was a pacifist.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Ted Shigyo: So he did not want to go to war. So he ended up in California in 1903, I believe [laughter].
>> Carlene Tinker: Well, that's a very good reason. I side with him. I must agree [laughter]. Okay, but I take it that neither grandfather was married at the time.
>> Ted Shigyo: No, they were not.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's right. They didn't know each other, either, because they came from different prefectures.
>> Ted Shigyo: Correct, correct. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, right. But when they got here in the United States, did they decide – they, they obviously stayed here a little while, right?
>> Ted Shigyo: Long time, yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: And then they thought, okay, maybe it's time to get married. Is that true?
>> Ted Shigyo: That's true.
>> Carlene Tinker: And so, what did they do about that?
>> Ted Shigyo: So the family back in Japan arranged for a bride to -- or brides, both grandfathers -- to come over. So they were picture brides.
>> Carlene Tinker: Mm-hmm.
>> Ted Shigyo: So they were sent to California to get married. In fact, my paternal grandmother came over, and they lived in San Francisco for a few years. I don't know if they were there for the 1906 earthquake in San Francisco, but my father was born in San Francisco in 1909, so.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, okay. Now -- what was I going to -- were there -- was there a large age difference between your dad and your mom?
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, yes. I think there -- oh, probably, like, 12 years' age difference.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, I think that was fairly typical.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Is that true? Okay, the other grandfather did the same?
>> Ted Shigyo: Same thing. Actually, it was his second or third cousin, I believe, from -- yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Ted Shigyo: And she was a feisty old lady. I shouldn't say that. She was a great Bachan [laughter]. I think everything I know and what I stand for comes from her, I think [laughter].
>> Carlene Tinker: [laughter] Well, that, to me, is atypical. Is that right [laughter]? I have the stereotype of women in Japan as being very submissive.
>> Ted Shigyo: Not Bachan [laughter].
>> Carlene Tinker: That's good, to learn that you had inherited some feistiness [laughter]. Was there a large difference between them as well? >> Ted Shigyo: Yes, yes, yeah. Ten or 12 years also, yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Ten or 12 years -- sometimes, it's as much as --
>> Ted Shigyo: Twenty.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- about 20 or 30 years, yeah. And -- but now, did both grandparents -- grandfathers end up in farming?
>> Ted Shigyo: No, no. My paternal grandfather -- you know, farming was the only thing he knew. So they were migrant farmers that went from central California, mainly Dinuba area, to Phoenix, Arizona.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Ted Shigyo: In fact, you know -- I'm sure we'll cover this later, but they were initially interned in the Gila River Internment Camp, because I assume that they were in Phoenix at that time.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Ted Shigyo: But they -- you know, they were mainly into farming. My maternal grandfather went into chicken ranching. So he had a chicken ranch down in Gardena. So --
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh. But both of them were interned?
>> Ted Shigyo: -- yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Both families were interned.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Well, that's interesting, because you said they -- your paternal grandmother -- father I mean, your paternal --
>> Ted Shigyo: Grandfather.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- grandfather was in Phoenix at the time, and --
>> Ted Shigyo: Correct.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- I wonder why he just didn't stay there, you know. Could he have that option?
>> Ted Shigyo: No, no. There was a loyalty oath thing that came around, and I think he said, you know, he would not sign it, whatever. So he was transferred to Tule Lake because of that.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, well, we'll get back to that.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure -- yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Ted Shigyo: And my maternal grandfather's family was -- I don't know. They got sent to Tule Lake for some reason. But anyway, they were initially assembled -- Santa Anita Assembly Center, because they were in Gardena.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, right.
>> Ted Shigyo: Then they were shipped up north.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, but then your paternal grandfather -- they were up here, in Parlier, and -- right?
>> Ted Shigyo: Yeah, but I think they had -- they were in Phoenix --
>> Carlene Tinker: During that time?
>> Ted Shigyo: -- during that time, I believe.
>> Carlene Tinker: They didn't have to go to an assembly center?
>> Ted Shigyo: I'm not sure. They never talked about that.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Sometimes -- I learned recently that people who were east of a certain area, like Sanger -- they didn't have to go to an assembly center. They directly went to the camp, like Halo or Poston.
>> Ted Shigyo: Oh, really? Oh. Oh.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. They didn't have to spend time in the assembly center. I, for example, was in southern California, and we went to Santa Anita, like your -- one side of your family, yeah. So apparently, there was this line -- if you were east of that, you didn't have to go to an assembly center.
>> Ted Shigyo: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm. Oh, I see.
>> Carlene Tinker: So your -- okay, I'm getting these generations mixed up. The paternal side is the one that were the migrant --
>> Ted Shigyo: Migrant farmers, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- okay. I love that migrant farmer -- [laughter] okay. Yeah, so you were born in Tule Lake. How did you get -- how did your family get to Tule Lake? You want to -- do you have any background on that, or do you know? Did your parents ever talk about this?
>> Ted Shigyo: No, you know, they rarely ever talked about that. When our Hakujin friends would question them, they would answer, there was firebombing at their next-door neighbors house, or -- I don't know if they were talking about the -- there was an incident in Dinuba or whatever. You know, there were a lot of prejudice in those days, and they were fearful. And my mom would say she felt somewhat more secure in an internment camp, because, you know, people were out to get them, I guess. That's about all, you know, she would say.
>> Carlene Tinker: Hm. Yeah, they didn't really talk much about --
>> Ted Shigyo: No, no.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, so you were an infant, and obviously you're not going to remember a lot of this first-hand.
>> Ted Shigyo: No, no.
>> Carlene Tinker: But -- okay, so let's talk about your parents being interned in Gila River, all right?
>> Ted Shigyo: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: And then, about middle of 1942, the United States government realized they made a mistake in relocating us. Okay, and so they came up with a plan, supposedly, that was going to work to get these people out of camps, you know, because it was a mistake. And they also -- at that time, they turned around, and they wanted to draft people, even though before, the young men were considered aliens, and they weren't fit to be in our army and fighting against us, you know, because they were Japanese, all right?
>> Ted Shigyo: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm. Yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: So they came up with these questions, these loyalty questions. And do you have an idea what these questions are?
>> Ted Shigyo: I have not read the questionnaire, but I think the question was, if Japan invaded mainland United States, would you support the Japanese or the United States? I think that was the--the gist of it.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, let me read them to you. Okay?
>> Ted Shigyo: Oh, okay.
>> Carlene Tinker: Question 27 -- and again, this was the government's plan to reintegrate -- get these people out of the camps, you know, as long as they didn't go back to the west coast.
>> Ted Shigyo: Uh-huh, Uh-huh.
>> Carlene Tinker: And so, euphemistically, they re-titled these. Instead of loyalty questions, they called it application for leave clearance -- I mean, which was a misnomer in itself.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, yes [laughter], absolutely.
>> Carlene Tinker: But the two infamous questions are, 27, ask draft-age males, "Are you willing to serve in the armed forces of the United States on combat duty wherever ordered?" And then, there was supposed to be another one for Isseis and women. "If the opportunity presented itself, and you were found qualified, will you be willing to volunteer for the Army Nurse Corps or the WAC?" Oh, well, obviously, how would you react to number 27 if you were a young male who initially was --
>> Ted Shigyo: Mmm. Disqualified. Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- deemed unqualified? Question 28, "Will you swear unqualified allegiance to the United States of America, and faithfully defend the United States from any or all attacks by foreign or domestic forces, and forswear any form of allegiance or obedience to the Japan--Japanese Emperor, or any other foreign government, power, or organization?" Well, that's the one that you were alluding to.
>> Ted Shigyo: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
>> Carlene Tinker: And obviously, if you were foreign-born Issei -- because there was the Exclusion Act. They couldn't become citizens until 1952. So what would they do? If they answered yeah, they would be without a country, because they really weren't part of Japan anymore, and they weren't part of the United States. So both of these questions were a real problem.
>> Ted Shigyo: Mmm. Mmmmm. Yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay. So I understand that your parents answered no to both of them. Is that correct?
>> Ted Shigyo: Probably. Well, except for a few -- I have two uncles by marriage, and one was drafted and fought with the 442 in Europe. And I have another uncle by marriage -- actually, it's a Fresno family, Nii -- N-I-I family -- and he -- I don't -- I think he volunteered. And he didn't speak much Japanese-- Nisei, you know. I mean, he spoke enough to understand, but he didn't speak a lot of Japanese. They sent him to Monterey Language School to learn Japanese, and he was in the Pacific as an interpreter, interrogator, and so on.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. Now, this was the latter part of the war, as I understand, 1944 -- about – ‘43, ’44, yeah.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, Yeah. Yeah '44, '45.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- yeah, because -- and then the 442nd was a unit that was created -- it was actually started in Hawaii, as I understand, and then, then a lot -- there was this huge response by the Hawaiian Japanese to form that. And then, our government, the United States government, didn't want the Japanese-Americans to be in -- with the other guys that -- so they allowed them to join the 442nd.
>> Ted Shigyo: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
>> Carlene Tinker: Is that correct?
>> Ted Shigyo: That's correct, yes. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay, and I'm looking at my notes here. It said that 42% of the Tule Lake population refused to answer, or answered no to questions 27 and 28.
>> Ted Shigyo: Oh, is that right? Oh, I didn't know that.
>> Carlene Tinker: So, quickly, these people who said no or refused to answer -- they became known as the Disloyals, okay? So wherever they were before -- in your case, your parents were in Gila River -- they were shipped to Tule Lake, right?
>> Ted Shigyo: Ohh. Mm, Yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: And that was where -- Tule Lake became the segregation center.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, and in some cases, there were also prisoners. There were some men who were held in a stockade that were actually in prison. I think there were about 100 of them.
>> Ted Shigyo: Oh, really?
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, something like that. So initially, before the questions were set up, there were about 15,000 to 16,000 people at Tule Lake. But then, after that, after people became labeled as disloyal and ordered to leave the other camps, all other nine -- there were 10 altogether.
>> Ted Shigyo: Mm-hmm, Right, right, right.
>> Carlene Tinker: All of a sudden, the population of the Tule Lake camp became close to 19,000.
>> Ted Shigyo: Oh, I didn't realize that. Ohh.
>> Carlene Tinker: And so, when you had this mixture of people, obviously, what's going to happen? You're going to have people who are loyal. You're going to have people who are disloyal. The mix is not going to work.
>> Ted Shigyo: No, no.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. So for your parents, do you have any idea how comfortable it was, or uncomfortable, when they were moved? Do you have any idea about that?
>> Ted Shigyo: I'm not sure, but there was a lot going on in Tule Lake. You know that there was a tank that went around the compound 24 hours a day in addition to the watchtowers, and I remember my father talking about some of the internees actually took over a tank. They -- I mean, physic -- not -- you know, they didn't have guns or anything, but they actually boarded the tank and took the tank hostage.
>> Carlene Tinker: mm. Oh, my goodness.
>> Ted Shigyo: And I don't know how long the standoff lasted. I mean, they eventually gave up. I mean, they had no choice. I don't know if they had complaints about the treatment being -- you know, they were experiencing, or whatever. You know, he didn't really go into it. They didn't talk about -- he said he was on the outside. He wasn't that radical, but -- you know, so there, there must've been significant conflict within the compound there.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. Definitely. Definitely.
>> Ted Shigyo: And with the guards, too, you know.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, yeah. And I understand there was a very militant pro-Japan group called the Hoshidan, which -- you know, they marched around the camp, and that was very unsettling to the people who were not that pro-Japan. And they did march -- they were really militant. They had these -- shouting in the morning, rising early in the morning. So that's an interesting movement in itself. So there was an effort to get people to, I guess, expatriate, move to Japan. And so, I understand that your parents were interested in leaving. Is that true?
>> Ted Shigyo: mmm. Yes, yes. I wouldn't say interested. My father was Kibei Nisei.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, you want to explain what that is?
>> Ted Shigyo: Okay. Kibei Nisei is a term that's used for Nisei children of Issei who were sent back to Japan to be educated, and many of them went back and stayed in Japan. And some of them came back. My father was the eldest of eight children, and he was sent back -- I don't know. He must've been four or five, I think, and he came back when he was 16.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, wow.
>> Ted Shigyo: So he was -- he mainly spoke Japanese until he went to school here, and learned English.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, right.
>> Ted Shigyo: But four of -- The other eight children, all girls, ended up in Japan to be educated, and all remained in Japan. And three of them -- I don't think they -- none of them ever got married. I've visited their -- the great, you know, headstones, where the -- and two of them died very young, in their teens, and one in the 20s. One married a Japanese man, and they were very poor. And they immigrated to Manchu, Manchuria --
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh. I'll be darned.
>> Ted Shigyo: -- because it was a Japanese colony, and land was available for farming. So they immigrated to Manchuria, and obviously, Manchuria was taken back by China after the war. So they came back to Japan, and they now live in Brazil.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my goodness [laughter]. My goodness, that's definitely a surprise.
>> Ted Shigyo: [laughter] Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Well, now, getting back to your dad, though, he was there until 16. I'm surprised he even did-- thought of coming back. You know, why did he come back to the United States?
>> Ted Shigyo: I think my grandfather wanted him back, because the two youngest remained, his younger brother and younger sister, George and Mary [assumed spellings]. So I -- you know, for -- and probably my grandfather was -- wanted to have someone looking after him, because my uncle George wasn't very responsible man [laughter].
>> Carlene Tinker: [laughter] Well, and also, he had property, too, right?
>> Ted Shigyo: No, no, he did not. He did not at that time, no, no.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh Okay. Okay. Okay. So, anyway, when your father came back, married your mom, had—had you in Tule Lake, okay, why did he decide to go back? Was it more comfortable, or --
>> Ted Shigyo: Probably. Well, it's somewhat complicated in the sense that my maternal grandfather, who had the chicken ranch down in Gardena -- he lost the ranch because he had -- you know, he was interned. And I don't think he was ever compensated for that -- was going blind. He had diabetes, severe diabetes. He was going blind, and he had three daughters, my mother and two aunts. And, you know, my mom was married to my dad, and my mother's older sister had four kids. And he felt like none of his daughters would be able to take care of him, of him and his -- you know, my Bachan. So he wanted to go back to Japan, because I guess he had been corresponding with his family back in Japan. And like I said earlier, he came from a fairly well-to-do merchant family. So they had a place for him, you know. They would give him a house to live in, and they would look after him. He had brothers and sisters who helped take care of him. So he was -- he definitely was going to go back.
>> Carlene Tinker: Mmm. Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Yeah.
>> Ted Shigyo: And for some reason, my mother had a very strong attachment to my grandparents, and my father being Kibei -- I'm sure he had desired to maybe go back.
>> Carlene Tinker: Sure.
>> Ted Shigyo: And I think the combination of those things made them go back, and here I was, you know [laughter]. >> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, and you were only two, so you had no say in this.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yeah, two [laughter].
>> Carlene Tinker: What was I going to say? But did they give up their citizenship here?
>> Ted Shigyo: No, no, they kept it.
>> Carlene Tinker: No, they did not.
>> Ted Shigyo: No.
>> Carlene Tinker: There were several who did, and so I was going to ask you -- oh, boy, it took years for some of them to get their citizenship back.
>> Ted Shigyo: No, no, they kept it.
>> Carlene Tinker: But in their case, they did not give it up.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yeah, yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: And when did they actually leave for Japan? Was it --
>> Ted Shigyo: I think ear--early in -- I mean, 1946.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- 1946?
>> Ted Shigyo: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. And Tule Lake was the last of the 10 internment camps that was to close. The one I was in was Amache in southern -- southeastern Colorado, and we closed in March 1945, and a year later is when Tule Lake closed, March 1946.
>> Ted Shigyo: Okay, it must've been about that time, because I have only two photos of me in Tule Lake. And one is -- I'm standing with winter clothes next to a fence. So I must've been, you know, 18, 19 months, 20 months. I mean -- so that would be about the right time.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, yeah, because you were born in '44.
>> Ted Shigyo: Right.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. Now, do you have any memories other than this little photo bringing back memories.
>> Ted Shigyo: No, no, the only other memento is I have a burn scar right here from a coal potbelly stove. I guess I touched it, and I sustained a deep second-degree burn.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, and it's still prominent.
>> Ted Shigyo: I carried that scar with me all my life [laughter].
>> Carlene Tinker: [laughter] Now, did anybody else from your extended family -- did any of them go with you to Japan, or just your family?
>> Ted Shigyo: No, just my family. My aunts, uncles, cousins -- they're all -- my grand -- I mean, my paternal grandparents, they remained. They're all --
>> Carlene Tinker: Isn't that something? Yeah, well, you were lucky that you went to a very well-to-do area, because many people went to a Japan that was bombed-out.
>> Ted Shigyo: -- yes, yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: You know, and rationing for food, and just water, and that kind of stuff -- so you were very lucky. So you were the only one born at that time?
>> Ted Shigyo: Correct.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, and then when you -- your family expatriated, then how many more children were born?
>> Ted Shigyo: Two more.
>> Carlene Tinker: Two more?
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: And so, when you went to Japan, were you speaking Japanese or English?
>> Ted Shigyo: I was beginning to speak English, but my parents told me -- I mean, you know, they're fairly fluent in -- my -- especially my mom. She was raised there, educated here, so my dad was, you know, I mean, okay. He did okay with English. But when I was beginning to speak English, the Japanese kids would laugh at me, or make fun of me.
>> Carlene Tinker: Uh-huh. Why is that? Because you had a bad accent?
>> Ted Shigyo: Well, no, no, not the Japan -- did I say Japanese? English, yeah. Because if you don't speak Japanese, if you're not Japanese, you're gaijin, barbarian foreigner, you know [laughter]. So I was being mistreated, so my parents decided to raise me as a Japanese boy.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned.
>> Ted Shigyo: So when we came back in 1955, only spoke a few words of English.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my gosh. So you had the reverse situation when you came back. Why did they -- well, let's see. You grew up basically until you were -- let's see --
>> Ted Shigyo: 10.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- 10, and so you went to grammar school there, and --
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- and you got trained there, and then what made them decide to come back? Oh, because of the family.
>> Ted Shigyo: Becau-- Family, and opportunity.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. And so, where did you move back to?
>> Ted Shigyo: We came back to -- my uncle, my father's younger brother, was renting a house. My fa--grandfather had passed away by then. So my uncle was living with my grandmother, in Parlier renting a house.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, where is Parlier?
>> Ted Shigyo: Parlier is about 10 miles east of Fowler.
>> Carlene Tinker: East of Fowler?
>> Ted Shigyo: Yeah, between Fowler and Reedley.
>> Carlene Tinker: And Reedley, okay.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: So south of Fresno?
>> Ted Shigyo: Correct.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, and Parlier is still pretty small, I understand.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: It's a pretty poor area, too.
>> Ted Shigyo: Very poor.
>> Carlene Tinker: Very poor.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: But you finished -- well, you went to junior high and high school in Parlier. Is that correct?
>> Ted Shigyo: Yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Finished grammar school there --
>> Ted Shigyo: Grammar school, junior high, high school, yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. So when you came back, you were speaking only Japanese. So then, you had the reverse problem. You had to learn English again.
>> Ted Shigyo: English, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. So were you accepted when you came back?
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes. Actually, you know, Parlier, for some reason, is a very integrated community. There are not only a lot of Mexican people there -- I mean, it's about 90 or 95% Mexicans now.
>> Carlene Tinker: But it wasn't that high --
>> Ted Shigyo: It wasn't at that time.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- okay.
>> Ted Shigyo: It was probably only, like, 50 or 60% Mexicans. They're a huge -- Oklahomans -- Okies that had moved to California during the Dust Bowl had lived in Parlier, outside of Parlier. So there are a lot of Oklahomans. There were a lot of Armenians there.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, they were experiencing their own problems of discrimination, fleeing from Turkey.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, yes. Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, okay.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: And how about any blacks? Were there any blacks there?
>> Ted Shigyo: No, no blacks.
>> Carlene Tinker: How about even now? Probably not very many.
>> Ted Shigyo: I don't know of any, I don't think.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, yeah. So you had a real melting pot.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, and a large Japanese community. In fact, there's a Japanese Buddhist church. They're not as active now, but when I was growing up, it was a large congregation of Japanese-Americans going to the -- to Buddhist church there.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned. Are you Buddhist, or are you Christian?
>> Ted Shigyo: Well, I was raised as a Buddhist, and my son is a Christian minister.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh.
>> Ted Shigyo: So I'm sort of agnostic, you know. I believe that there's a higher power and so on, but there are a lot of good teachings in Buddhism and Christianity, and other religions. So I'm sort of – [laughter]
>> Carlene Tinker: [laughter] You have the best of both worlds.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's fine. That's fine. Well, I'm -- you know, that's an interesting thing about Parlier, because when my mom was a young woman, her father was a truck farmer, or a migrant farmer from southern California up here. They experienced a lot of discrimination and prejudice. So it sounds like you did not have that.
>> Ted Shigyo: No, luckily, I did not have that.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah.
>> Ted Shigyo: And I was very fortunate.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. Now, of course, you were also a small community, so they could -- there wasn't a lot of competition among the groups. I think size is a very critical factor.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, I think so, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. And as a result of my mother's experiences, she would never want to move to Fresno, even though when she got older and my dad died, it was difficult for her to live by herself. She refused to come to Fresno. [laughter]
>> Ted Shigyo: Oh, really?
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, yeah. First of all, she said it was too darned hot.
>> Ted Shigyo: It is hot [laughter].
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, so your parents came back to Parlier, and they went back to farming. Is that true?
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, farming. >> Carlene Tinker: Okay. And did they have their own property?
>> Ted Shigyo: No, not at that time. They worked for a man by the name of Mr. Sunimoto [assumed spelling] for many, many years, and eventually -- about 10 years later, they were able to buy a farm of their own, so --
>> Carlene Tinker: How many acres?
>> Ted Shigyo: -- 40 acres.
>> Carlene Tinker: Forty acres? That was a very common size. Is that --
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, that was --
>> Carlene Tinker: -- for a family.
>> Ted Shigyo: -- yes, that was a family farm in Parlier. Forty -- some had 20, but most people have 40 to 80 acres, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, right, yeah. We have friends in Boles. They had, like, 80.
>> Ted Shigyo: Eighty, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, something like that. Okay, the Sunimotos then sold your -- their property to your father. What kind of crops did they raise?
>> Ted Shigyo: They raised grapes, and later on, they went into persimmons, kaki -- Japanese kaki, and apple pear. They tried initially table grapes. They tried raisin grapes, winery grapes, and they experimented -- you know, farming is a tough life, so --
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, it's very tough. Were you ever part of the farming situation? Did your parents expect you to do any of the farming?
>> Ted Shigyo: -- oh, yes. Whenever I was home, I was out there helping out.
>> Carlene Tinker: Riding the tractor?
>> Ted Shigyo: Riding the tractor, you know, turning raisin trays, and if the -- sometimes picking persimmons during wintertime, and -- it's a hard work. And during the summertime, you get hot, sweaty, dirty. So --
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. So when you were growing up in Parlier, and going to school, you didn't ever feel, from what we're -- you said about people getting along so well together, you didn't experience any prejudice or discrimination?
>> Ted Shigyo: -- no. You know, I didn't really have any of that. I guess I was very fortunate. It wasn't until after I left that, you know, I experienced some, but -- >> Carlene Tinker: But until you left for college -- I assume that's what you're talking about.
>> Ted Shigyo: -- correct, yes, yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right, yeah. But after college -- well, we'll get to that in a minute. You were -- you said you went to college, and were you the first in your family to go, or other relatives --
>> Ted Shigyo: -- well, my cousins --
>> Carlene Tinker: -- college-educated?
>> Ted Shigyo: -- my mother's older sister's kids went to college. So I -- in my immediate family, I was the first to go, correct.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay, because you were the eldest first of all, right?
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Now, how about your younger siblings? Did they go after you?
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes. My brother graduated from Fresno State. My sister went to a -- it's not technical -- art-art college down in L.A.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, I don't remember the name of that, but I know what you're talking about, yeah.
>> Ted Shigyo: Okay. So she's a very talented -- artistically-talented.
>> Carlene Tinker: Did the genes transfer to you?
>> Ted Shigyo: No, no. I'm good with memories, but [laughter] --
>> Carlene Tinker: So you went off to a four-year school right away. Is that true?
>> Ted Shigyo: -- yeah, yes, yeah.
>> Carlene Tinker: Which campus did you go --
>> Ted Shigyo: Well, I initially went to UC Berkeley. I was going to go into engineering.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- mm-hmm.
>> Ted Shigyo: But I didn't like it up at the UC Berkeley. So I ended up graduating from UC Santa Barbara. Then I was accepted to medical school up in San Francisco, so I graduated from UC San Francisco in 1973.
>> Carlene Tinker: '73?
>> Ted Shigyo: Mm-hmm.
>> Carlene Tinker: Now, I kind of remember when we talked earlier that the reason you didn't like Berkeley was too big.
>> Ted Shigyo: Too big, yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, yeah.
>> Ted Shigyo: Well, my high school graduating class only had 39 students, and my --
>> Carlene Tinker: You'd probably never had a class at Berkeley that had that few kids.
>> Ted Shigyo: -- no. My freshman chemistry class had 1800 students.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh [laughter]. My largest class at UCLA I think had 500, but that really tops mine [laughter]. Maybe I would've transferred, too, if I had that experience [laughter]. So what kind of medicine did you go into?
>> Ted Shigyo: Well, initially, I wanted to go into family practice, and go back to Parlier-Reedley area, because they had a shortage of general practitioners there. But when I was doing my internship, I had six weeks of rotation in the emergency room, and I loved -- I liked the excitement, and the -- probably the thrill, and, you know, being able to do things quickly, making quick decisions. So I switched to emergency medicine.
>> Carlene Tinker: And then you did that all your working career?
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, 30 years.
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned. But then, eventually, it gets to you, right? You kind of --
>> Ted Shigyo: Stress, yes, yeah. But I think rather than the medical stress, I think it was more of regulations, and other things that was put upon that you that bothered me more. So that got to me.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- right, yeah. So you retired -- how old were you when you retired?
>> Ted Shigyo: I was 60.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, so you're, what, 74 now?
>> Ted Shigyo: Seventy-four, yeah. But I volunteered at the Holy Cross Clinic, which is a free medical clinic by Povarello House.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, okay.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yeah, St. Agnes runs that.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, I didn't know that.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Okay.
>> Ted Shigyo: So I used to go there.
>> Carlene Tinker: But you don't do that anymore?
>> Ted Shigyo: No, no. Again, regulations, and I felt like I was being taken advantage of somewhat, and --
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah, yeah.
>> Ted Shigyo: -- and I also helped out with a summer camp for my son's church. They would have, you know, a four-day summer camp with up to 40 kids, and my wife and I would be the medical team for the camp.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh. Is your wife a nurse?
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Well, how -- how fortunate [laughter]. Okay, so getting on to -- I remember earlier, just before we talked about your medical training, and going to college, you said that after you left college, that's when you started to experience racism. Can you --
>> Ted Shigyo: Not a lot. Not racism, but I remember one December when I was shopping at a grocery store, and one man came up to me. And, you know, he was probably 10, 15 away, and he purposefully came up to me and said, "It's because of you and your family that we went to war."
>> Carlene Tinker: -- oh, my.
>> Ted Shigyo: He must've been a veteran of World War II, and I -- you know, I could've been Chinese, or another nationality, but he, you know, assumed that --
>> Carlene Tinker: What year was this, Ted?
>> Ted Shigyo: -- this was in the late '70s.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, my. Yeah, here in Fresno?
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. And then, you said there was another incident that you experienced some kind of discrimination. Was that applying for some kind of a card?
>> Ted Shigyo: Oh, that was more recent.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh. >> Ted Shigyo: Yeah, it's a special card when you travel abroad. Instead of going through the regular process of returning to United States, if you have this card, you have a speedy entrance at the airport.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, okay.
>> Ted Shigyo: So my wife and I both applied. We have the last -- the same last name, but, you know, she is Caucasian. So this is, say -- there's $100 nonrefundable fee, and they do a thorough check of your background and so on. Then you have to go for an interview, and the closest place that we could get to and quickest was in Las Vegas. So at our own expense, we flew to Las Vegas for this interview, and we went to have our interview. And my wife went first, and there wasn't any problem, and I went through, and there wasn't any problem. And the man said, "Okay, you should get your notice tomorrow." And, well, a week later, my wife got a little card saying that she had passed, and I never got it. So we called, and said -- they said I had been rejected. And I said, "Why?" And they said, "We don't give out any reason why we reject you."
>> Carlene Tinker: Hmm. Oh, my goodness. And this was just recent?
>> Ted Shigyo: Recently, yes, about two years ago.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh my. Oh, my goodness, yeah.
>> Ted Shigyo: So the only thing I could think of -- I mean, I have had no criminal record or anything.
>> Carlene Tinker: So in the final say, you didn't get the card?
>> Ted Shigyo: Yeah, that's it.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh. There are no agencies you can complain to?
>> Ted Shigyo: Nope.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. Okay. Oh, my. That's really disconcerting, because I always feel that we've come a long way, but obviously we haven't. There are a lot of these incidents that are popping up, and I'm thinking, oh, my gosh. I'm blindly accepting all of this, and --
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes, I know.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- yeah.
>> Ted Shigyo: It's sad.
>> Carlene Tinker: It is sad.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yeah, it is.
>> Carlene Tinker: And our current situation in the government, and how we're treating immigrants is -- >> Ted Shigyo: I know, it's terrible.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- you know, and I think that's the lesson that we want to impart to our children, and to society, that relocation was a bad thing, obviously. The government recognized that early on, that they made a mistake. President Ronald Reagan recognized that we made a mistake, and people got reparations, or redress. By the way, did your parents receive reparations?
>> Ted Shigyo: My father had passed away, so my mother did. I got it, too.
>> Carlene Tinker: You did, because --
>> Ted Shigyo: Yeah, yeah, I was born there.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- you technically were in --
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: -- yeah, yeah. And my mother and father and I did as well. Of course, I'm a lot -- well, I'm not that much older than you [laughter]. So anyway, that is the story that we want to, through these interviews, talk about, you know, the lesson that relocation was bad. Okay, so getting back to your experiences growing up in the valley, and living in the valley, has it been positive, or has it been negative?
>> Ted Shigyo: Living here?
>> Carlene Tinker: Mm-hmm.
>> Ted Shigyo: It's been very positive. It's -- you know, I've made many friendships, not only with Japanese-Americans, but I have many Mexican-American friends, and I have a couple good Oklahoman friends [laughter] from Oklahoma family, Armenian friends. It's given a better outlook on society to accept other people as they are. And growing up in a small community, I was able to do a lot of things when I was growing up -- play sports in different areas, football, baseball, tennis, and other things that, if I had gone to a larger school, I probably would not have. And I'm very good. I have a great vegetable garden. Growing up on a farm -- farming was a great introduction to life, because it takes a lot to prepare things for the crop to grow during summertime, you know. You can't just wait until summer to go out and pick your grapes. I mean, you have to start preparing in the fall. You do pruning, and tie vines, and you have to fertilize, and plow the field, and irrigate the field. And, you know, life's the same thing. You have to prepare things. I think maybe --
>> Ted Shigyo: Growing up on the farm made me able to go into medicine, because you can't just apply for medical school and be accepted. You know, you have to prove to them that you can study, that you can retain knowledge, and you can persevere, you know? You know the word gaman?
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Ted Shigyo: [inaudible]
>> Carlene Tinker: You want to explain what gaman means?
>> Ted Shigyo: Gaman is, you know, you persevere, you have to keep going because life is not fair. And you can't look back, I mean, you could learn from things, but you got to look forward.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's true.
>> Ted Shigyo: And I think -- Japanese Americans still maintain that. I mean, that was taught to me by my obachan, and my parents. And I think it's a great learning tool for us. You live with it all your life.
>> Carlene Tinker: That's right. Right. And now, do you ever regret anything like having gone to Japan or being Japanese? Do you have --have you re -- you have any regrets?
>> Ted Shigyo: You know, there's positives and negatives. Being able to speak Japanese has been valuable for me in certain areas. I've gotten jobs, or -- which I would not have. Like I -- during summertime when I was going to college I worked for the U.S. Government Fisheries Department out of Juneau, Alaska.
>> Carlene Tinker: Mm.
>> Ted Shigyo: We -- they trained us to collect certain fish samples. And they also needed inspectors on Japanese fishing vessels, because they had signed a treaty with Japan saying that Japanese fishing vessels cannot catch salmon and halibut.
>> Ted Shigyo: So, we would go onboard Japanese -- they would place us on these Japanese trawlers, fishing vessels for up to six weeks --
>> Carlene Tinker: I'll be darned.
>> Ted Shigyo: And stay with them. And you had to speak, you know, fluent Japanese and I got paid fairly well. So, you know, I was able to do things like that.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right.
>> Ted Shigyo: The other thing is that when we came back to -- California, I think I felt like I had to prove to others that I was American. You know, I was born here, my parents were born here. I'm not -- I mean, I was raised in Japan, I have a lot of Japanese -- what's a good word?
>> Carlene Tinker: Culture? [inaudible] --
>> Ted Shigyo: Culture or things that Japanese value.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yes, Value.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yeah. But, I felt like I'm still you know, American, I have to be an American. And I felt like I had to work extra hard to become an American. And I -- and I think it was really tough going initially because I had to learn a new language and...
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. Right.
>> Ted Shigyo: You know, and new culture, but I'm thoroughly American now.
>> Carlene Tinker: You know it. I guess that leads to my final question, how would you like to be remembered?
>> Ted Shigyo: Well, I'd like to be remembered -- well, personally, I'd like to be remembered as a -- kind person I think. And -- and I have grown to be wiser, I don't think I was very wise when I was younger. And -- I was part of this American culture, and I was able to give back actually. I -- you know? Medicine was very good helping people, and I got compensated very well. But I wanted to give back, you know, I volunteered enough time, I have treated enough people without charging them. And so, medically I've given back, humanity wise I've given back. I want to give back to America, you know? That I was a productive part of the society, and that's what I've taught my kids I hope. That they are able to give back to this society, and part of this society. And the other thing is not to alienate other people and accept other people, you know? That we have a wonderful country, we accept other people -- we should accept other people as they are, and we do most of the time. My daughter lived in New York for several years, and we went to this community in Brooklyn. And it was an Indian -- East Indian, Pakistani community.
>> Carlene Tinker: Mm-hmm.
>> Ted Shigyo: And there was a Pakistani store right next to the Indian store, and you know, I mean, these countries are fighting, yet in the United States they coexist and --
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, that's -- that is definitely what we're hoping for.
>> Ted Shigyo: Yes. Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. Peaceful existence. >> Ted Shigyo: Yes. Yes.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yes. Well, I thank you so much. Is there anything else that you would like to add? I just so appreciate your participating. I hope this has been a meaningful experience.
>> Ted Shigyo: It absolutely has been. You're doing a wonderful job. I will have to tell my family if I'm on record, and if they want to know about me they can contact the library here. But it's been a wonderful experience. I will -- I have to, you know, think about my, I guess previous life. And you're doing a wonderful job, and I'd like to thank you for all you do.
>> Carlene Tinker: Oh, you're very welcome. And this has been a learning experience for me as well. I'm 79 and just only 10 years have I really looked at my past.
>> Ted Shigyo: Oh, great.
>> Carlene Tinker: And this is a new adventure for me as well.
>> Ted Shigyo: That's great. Great. Great.
>> Carlene Tinker: Yeah. So, it's been a wonderful journey so far.
>> Ted Shigyo: Well, that's great.
>> Carlene Tinker: And -- and I --
>> Ted Shigyo: I'm glad to hear that.
>> Carlene Tinker: Right. I thank you very much.
>> Ted Shigyo: Oh, you're welcome.